Anyone have perspective(s) on what’s happening right now in Israel between the Israeli’s and Hamas?

Livin in all honestly i’m curious what some of your own thoughts are on the current conflict?

Yeah.
Acting Aussie PM Julia Gillard: “Hamas has broken the ceasefire and engaged in an act of aggression against Israel. Israel has responded.”
Enuf said.

I agree that Israel has to do something to protect it’s citizens. But I think the eye for an eye approach is going to do little to further the peace process. It’s sad because the many people who do live in Gaza who aren’t looking to terrorize anybody, but are just looking to provide for their families and live the day to day like the rest of us, are forced to huddle on the floor of their homes because you don’t know if your next door neighbor is hiding something they shouldn’t, and you and your family can only wait and hope you don’t end up in the civilian casualty body count, because an F-16 blew your negihbor’s house up, and shame on Hamas. Seriously, what are firing home made rockets across the border, most of which end up landing in some empty farm field really accomplishing. Besides ticking off the Israelis who’s citizens in the south live under almost daily rocket barage. Seriously if Hamas spent as much time focussed on peaceful resistance to the Israeli occupation, as they do at their own violent political agenda that has divided the Palestinian people, then they might get somewhere. Rather then just simply putting their citizens in harm’s way.But I think that as long as this cycle of you shoot a homemade rocket at us, so we’ll repspond with missles and rockets and helicopters, so you’ll respond with more home made rockets out of anger, in turn we’ll send more helicopters and fighter jets, an in turn you’ll shoot off more rockets, and we’ll close your borders leaving you with little food and basic necessities, in turn you’ll fire off more rockets out of anger destroying a home of someone who never did anything to cause you harm, and we’ll discuss a ceasfire while still shooting at each other through this country who in turn we’ll pass our message to that country over there, who will in turn relay it to you, and then you’ll send your response through the same cycle. I think as long as the endless cycle continues, then no-one Israeli or Palestinian will truly have peace.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

I agree that Israel has to do something to protect it’s citizens. But I think the eye for an eye approach is going to do little to further the peace process. ... I think as long as the endless cycle continues, then no-one Israeli or Palestinian will truly have peace.

Right.  That’s why Hamas needs to be exterminated and a true pro-peace Palestinian gov’t formed.  Israel waited and waited before replying to the rocket barrages on their townships and schools.

It’s also why one of my heroes Tony Blair is right in keeping the Middle East Peace Process (MEPP) on life-support.

I think currently Israel is using Hamas’s offensive action to inflict as much damage to them as possible while the Presidency is in transition. I am really concerned it might grow to a larger regional conflict due to the same reason.

My take on the prospect of peace in the region is the same as it was in freshman poli-sci, with the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East the only peace the world will see is occasional cease fires.

Sadly the events that led up to the creation of Israel i.e British Mandate, the Holocaust, the end of WWII & subsequent East/West power struggle far overshadowed any thought of long term regional stability.

My thought as a naive freshman in college was that rather than splitting Berlin in half, why did the powers that be not just give it to the Jews and let them create a New Israel there as a form reparation.

Obviously later with a better understanding of history, religion and politics I realized why this did not happen, but what a different world it would be.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

I agree that Israel has to do something to protect it’s citizens.

For Israel, it’s more than protecting their citizens, it’s protecting their birthright, their history.  It’s protecting the only democratic state in the Middle East, and the only Jewish state in the world.  It’s about fighting for what they have been fighting for since they first faced opposition: their very right to exist.  It’s about a centuries/millennia-old fight just to live and breathe and exist.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

But I think the eye for an eye approach is going to do little to further the peace process.

If the Arab world would just be happy with the more than five million square miles they already have and leave the approximate 10,000 square miles of Israel alone, there would be no problem.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

It’s sad because the many people who do live in Gaza who aren’t looking to terrorize anybody, but are just looking to provide for their families and live the day to day like the rest of us, are forced to huddle on the floor of their homes because you don’t know if your next door neighbor is hiding something they shouldn’t, and you and your family can only wait and hope you don’t end up in the civilian casualty body count, because an F-16 blew your negihbor’s house up,

I’m not quite sure what you would be basing this belief on.  Those that live in Gaza, if they are Arab and Muslim, have a mandate to see Israel wiped off the map.  Period.  Jihad is part of their Islamic credo, not an option.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

and shame on Hamas. Seriously, what are firing home made rockets across the border, most of which end up landing in some empty farm field really accomplishing. Besides ticking off the Israelis who’s citizens in the south live under almost daily rocket barage. Seriously if Hamas spent as much time focussed on peaceful resistance to the Israeli occupation, as they do at their own violent political agenda that has divided the Palestinian people, then they might get somewhere. Rather then just simply putting their citizens in harm’s way.

They see it as just more of the same old fight that’s been going on for thousands of years - kill a Jew, good.  One of their own killed?  Glory and martyrdom.  It’s a win-win for them either way.  They have nothing to lose.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

But I think that as long as this cycle of you shoot a homemade rocket at us, so we’ll repspond with missles and rockets and helicopters, so you’ll respond with more home made rockets out of anger, in turn we’ll send more helicopters and fighter jets, an in turn you’ll shoot off more rockets, and we’ll close your borders leaving you with little food and basic necessities, in turn you’ll fire off more rockets out of anger destroying a home of someone who never did anything to cause you harm, and we’ll discuss a ceasfire while still shooting at each other through this country who in turn we’ll pass our message to that country over there, who will in turn relay it to you, and then you’ll send your response through the same cycle. I think as long as the endless cycle continues, then no-one Israeli or Palestinian will truly have peace.

If you believe in the Bible, peace in the Middle-East will only come in the time of the Antichrist.  Is your watch working...?

rollinfree - 31 December 2008 07:43 PM

I think currently Israel is using Hamas’s offensive action to inflict as much damage to them as possible while the Presidency is in transition. I am really concerned it might grow to a larger regional conflict due to the same reason.

I think you might be right about that.

dj-defkawn - 31 December 2008 07:09 PM

.But I think that as long as this cycle of you shoot a homemade rocket at us, so we’ll repspond with missles and rockets and helicopters, so you’ll respond with more home made rockets out of anger, in turn we’ll send more helicopters and fighter jets, an in turn you’ll shoot off more rockets, and we’ll close your borders leaving you with little food and basic necessities, in turn you’ll fire off more rockets out of anger destroying a home of someone who never did anything to cause you harm, and we’ll discuss a ceasfire while still shooting at each other through this country who in turn we’ll pass our message to that country over there, who will in turn relay it to you, and then you’ll send your response through the same cycle. I think as long as the endless cycle continues, then no-one Israeli or Palestinian will truly have peace.

DJ it sounds as if your heart is in the right place for the non-Jewish people of the region.  However you make it sound like a bunch of Hamas guys are welding rockets together in a basement. Nothing could be farther from the truth, these are well funded, well equipped soldiers. 

The reality is these are the “homemade” rockets you refer to:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/katyusha.htm
note the “Grad” in the 4th & 5thparagraph.

Hamas is importing these munitions not making them. Indeed the nation state of Israel is far better equipment from a military stand point.  All the more reason not to shoot Old Russian Rockets at them.

IDF Channel below...welcome to war.web.2009. wow

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

Livin you can’t be serious

“Those that live in Gaza, if they are Arab and Muslim, have a mandate to see Israel wiped off the map.  Period.  Jihad is part of their Islamic credo, not an option. “

So because you are an Arab Muslim who resides in Gaza, you are a terrorist who’s creed you live by is the sole destruction of Israel? So you mean to tell me me because your an Arab Muslim who resides in Gaza you can’t just want to live your life in peace, and want the bombs to stop falling for everyone Arab and Jew alike, and want a safe and good life for your family? I have Palestinian, and other Arab friends, and that is a totally racially biased statement, and couldn’t be farther from the truth. I mean that’s like saying because you are a Christian Black person who lives in Los Angeles, that your credo is the sale and traffiking of drugs, lol seriously Livin, your statement sounds just as far-fetched. So in your words then the Palestinian mother and her four children killed this morning as reported today by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz were all terrorists bent on Israel’s destruction? Or perhaps the nearly 70 civilians out of the 80 people killed by the Israeli Defence Forces since the start of their ground operations as reported today by yahoo.com, they were all terrorists as well I take it?

I just don’t see what more this operation will accomplish then an even more ticked off Palestinian population. Who can’t even flee the fighting in the Gaza Strip. Which the 25 mile long Gaza Strip has been pummeled for nearly a week now.

I understand Israel wanting to protect it’s citizens, but there has to be a better way then unleashing the same fear their residents in the South feel 10 fold on the families of Gaza who aren’t terrorists, and then denying any foreign journalists access to report on the fighting. Simply blowing the krap out of everything will do nothing to bring about a diplomatic solution for anyone. I just wish both sides would quit fighting for the greater good of their people, because bombs, rockets, and bullets do nothing for peace, be you a jew or a muslim.

Very valid point rollin about the Katyusha rockets. But also be sure to look up information as well on the Qassam rocket as well. Hamas invented this crude rocket that people often times weld in their own living room, or in a garage some place. Made from common parts and chemicals, shot off from some guys roof top or front lawn.

But totally, Hamas isn’t the average militia, they’re ruthless and cut throat, and would put their political agenda ahead of the safety of their own people.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

Livin you can’t be serious

Of course I’m serious.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

“Those that live in Gaza, if they are Arab and Muslim, have a mandate to see Israel wiped off the map.  Period. Jihad is part of their Islamic credo, not an option. ”

Yep. That’s what I wrote. And I stand by it (why wouldn’t I?)

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

So because you are an Arab Muslim who resides in Gaza, you are a terrorist who’s creed you live by is the sole destruction of Israel?

Did I say that every Arab Muslim who lives in Gaza is a terrorist? (hint: no, I did not)

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

So you mean to tell me me because your an Arab Muslim who resides in Gaza you can’t just want to live your life in peace

They want to live their life in peace - just not in Israel, but in “Palestine” (after every Jew is gone).

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

I have Palestinian, and other Arab friends, and that is a totally racially biased statement, and couldn’t be farther from the truth.

Ok, you have “Palestinian” and other Arab friends. Do your friends live in Israel? Or do they live in “Palestine” (a country that no longer exists)?

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

I mean that’s like saying because you are a Christian Black person who lives in Los Angeles, that your credo is the sale and traffiking of drugs, lol seriously Livin, your statement sounds just as far-fetched. So in your words then the Palestinian mother and her four children killed this morning as reported today by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz were all terrorists bent on Israel’s destruction? Or perhaps the nearly 70 civilians out of the 80 people killed by the Israeli Defence Forces since the start of their ground operations as reported today by yahoo.com, they were all terrorists as well I take it?

If you truly understood what the fight is about, what Jihad is about, and what “Palestinians” (Muslim Arabs who live in Israel) really think about the State of Israel, you wouldn’t be making the above uninformed statements.

And your L.A. analogy isn’t even close to being applicable.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

I just don’t see what more this operation will accomplish then an even more ticked off Palestinian population.

I’m sorry...are the “Palestinians” lily-white here? They haven’t been working very hard to kill Israelis with their bombings in the last several weeks? They haven’t already killed thousands in Israel from terrorist acts since the 1920’s?

Sure they have.

Where’s your regret for those actions and concern for the “ticked off” Israeli’s who’ve lost their lives because of the radical Islamic desire and need to see Israel (and all Jews) wiped off the face of the earth?

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

Who can’t even flee the fighting in the Gaza Strip. Which the 25 mile long Gaza Strip has been pummeled for nearly a week now.

Who in their right mind thinks that if they lob bombs at people there will not be retaliation and consequences?

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

I understand Israel wanting to protect it’s citizens

Actually, I don’t think you do. I don’t think you have clue one about the history of this fight or about their need to just BE, or how the Jewish people have fought with their lives to even *have* a state they can call Israel where they can try to live in peace or about how the Jewish people who had been without a home for milennia and now when they have it, they have to fight to keep it. Again.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

but there has to be a better way then unleashing the same fear their residents in the South feel 10 fold on the families of Gaza who aren’t terrorists, and then denying any foreign journalists access to report on the fighting.

What they are doing shouldn’t be commercialized. This idea that journalists have a right to know and see and be a part of war has only been the norm since the Gulf War.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

Simply blowing the krap out of everything will do nothing to bring about a diplomatic solution for anyone.

You have no clue what you are talking about here, either.

dj-defkawn - 05 January 2009 08:26 PM

I just wish both sides would quit fighting for the greater good of their people, because bombs, rockets, and bullets do nothing for peace, be you a jew or a muslim.

Well, as a someone of Jewish extraction, I can tell you that it’s not going to happen any time soon (as long as the Arabs keep behaving as they are). The Israeli’s don’t want to fight, but they have to. The Palestinians don’t have to fight, but they do anyway. <shrug>

As an addendum, DJ - I want you to understand that yes, I am very hot about the Middle-East issue(s).  Especially when I see or hear someone, such as yourself, being so appalled at Israel’s actions when you haven’t done your homework re: the history of the conflict.  There’s more to it than Israel beating the bejeebers out of Gaza right now - much, MUCH more.  This is an ages-old fight that has been going on since Hagar gave birth to Ishmael many thousands of years ago.

Don’t take what I said in the previous post personally - just do yourself a favor and look deeper into what’s going on than “I have some friends who are Palestinian and Muslim”.  Want to balance it out?  Talk to some Jews and see what they have to say about the whole thing.  Read some history of Israel, of Palestine, of the Arab world - and make sure that what you are reading is encyclopaedic in nature, not biased.  There’s more to it all than you (apparently and currently) understand. 

Even though at this point we obviously disagree on what’s going on there, I do appreciate you giving your perspective.

Livin,

I as well appreciate your perspective on the issue, and don’t take it personal.

I am quite familiar with Israel, and their conflict with the Arab world and especially the Palestinians, from the Mandate of Palestine, from the Israeli government’s find of Ariel Sharon’s indriect responsibility for the Qibya Massacre due to his and the troops he commanded actions, down to the PLO and Fatah’s involvement in the Coastal Road Masacre where 37 Israeli civilians were killed. Livin i’m not saying that anyone in the conflict is scott-free here, and I don’t deny that Israeli’s have been killed, as well as Palestinians. I also don’t deny that anyone be you Muslim or a Jew that you shouldn’t have to go through the pain of having a loved one taken from you, especially in such a horrific way. Nor do I deny that many Arab countries have done some horrific things to Jews, and even to their own people. But extreme leaders on both sides be you an Israeli Zionist or a Islamic Extremist have done some horrible things that have brought suffering to their respective peoples, and some of which wouldn’t be happy until the very last member of the other group was driven into the sea.

Actually Livin, my LA analogy was quite accurate to the point I was trying to make. That it is simply a racist mindset and biased mindset to simply pass a juggement on a certain group of people simply because of where they live, their ethnic background, and or their religion. I mean how would it sound if I said a comment like everyone up river is a racist, and wouldn’t like me due to my skin color. That would be an untrue biased statement, because I don’t know everyone up river, or if they have some sort of racial bias towards people of color, so in no way could I pass such a judgement, because that would not be accurate.

So Livin, why is it that if one is a Palestinian and a Muslim in Gaza exactly you can’t want to live your life in peace? That you can’t be a mother that hopes the next artillery shell doesn’t fall on your home with you and your children inside of it? Or a terrified father who wishes he only had a way to safety for his family away from the fighting? Now Livin you didn’t use the words “every Palestinian Muslim Arab is a Terrorist,” but what you did say is something like if you are a Palestinian Muslim Arab who lives in Gaza, then you’re credo is Israel’s absolute destruction correct? So the utter destruction of an entire nation, wouldn’t that be classified as terrorism if I’m not mistaken if that indeed were the case, which in turn would mean you were classify every one of the Muslim Palestinian residents of Gaza as terrorists correct???

The fact of the matter is regardless of whatever bad blood between Israeli’s and Palestinians, pummeling the 25 mile coastal strip with heavy munitions for 11 days now, Hamas returning the favor with volleys of rockets into Southern Israel terrorizing civilians, the IDF injuring 2500 people, and killing six hundred people in less then a week, destroying everything from farm houses to entire apartment buildings, is going to do little to stop Hamas’ rockets, or bring about peace for either side of this centuries old conflict. I just wish more was done to terrorize the actual leaders of Hamas and their actual fighters specificaly, and that the Palestinians caught in the cross-fire had a way out of the fighting. It’s just sad when you hear of any civilian woman & child, or family, father, brother, or mother, anywhere killed because of a military operation. I just hope for peace for both people’s in this conflict.

Hamas, which has been around as a terrorist organization for a long time, is now a more complex thing. It is also a political party. I’ll bet there is as much disagreement within the party as there is outside the country about it’s mandate. I see their efforts to become a mainstream political party being thwarted by the U.S. stance that they are a terrorist group. Many countries take a different view, making a distinction between the military and political wings and only sanction the military wing. Hamas was democratically elected and gained a majority in the parliament in 2006, yet the U.S. and Israel refused to acknowledge the election. We say we are in the middle east to support democracy but only if we like who is elected? I thought at the time it was amazing we could call it like that and get away with it. We take unilateral liberty to support Fatah and do everything in our power to bring about Hamas’ forced removal in 2007 from offices to which they were democratically elected. Could it have been more productive to honor the election, regardless of past history with Hamas? If they have the opportunity to succeed politically, would that eclipse the need to act out in aggression? Historically many militant groups have lived on to become viable political organizations and act within the political system.

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

don’t take it personal.

Below, you’re going to call me a racist.  I take that personally.  Who wouldn’t?

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

I am quite familiar with Israel

How so?  Reading?  Talking to your “Palestinian” acquaintances?  Have you ever been to Israel?

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

and their conflict with the Arab world and especially the Palestinians

From this statement, you obviously aren’t familiar.  Israel doesn’t have a conflict with the Arab world, the Arab world has a conflict with Israel.

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

from the Mandate of Palestine

You mean the British Mandate of Palestine?  That mandate stated clearly that its principal obligation was to facilitate the implementation of the 1917 Balfour Declaration which pledged “the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people.” In fact, there were to be no territorial restrictions whatsoever - neither east nor west of the Jordan River were placed on what was referred to in the mandate as the “Jewish National Home”. IOW, if this had stuck, there would be no country of Jordan today - it would all be Eretz Yisroel (the Land of Israel).

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

Nor do I deny that many Arab countries have done some horrific things to Jews

Not just Arab countries, DJ.  And that’s the whole, ever-lovin’ point.  Yes, Israel has a world-recognized and UN resolution recognized right to exist in safety within its internationally recognized borders. But, Israel fights for more than just their right to live in *their* land.  The Jewish people have been fighting the Arabs (and the rest of the world) for their right to just live and breathe since Abraham, Hagar, and Ishmael.  It’s about their survival as a *people*, not just as a country.  For you to believe that this is just about a country’s borders is naive and short-sighted at best.

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

But extreme leaders on both sides be you an Israeli Zionist or a Islamic Extremist have done some horrible things that have brought suffering to their respective peoples, and some of which wouldn’t be happy until the very last member of the other group was driven into the sea.

Excuse me?  Sorry, but that’s not a Zionist objective, that’s an Islamic objective.  The term “driven into the sea” comes from the 1968 PLO Charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel that states “pushing all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive”.

And when was the last time you heard of a “Zionist” bomb going off in a restaurant in Tel Aviv or on a bus in Jerusalem (how about never)?

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

Actually Livin, my LA analogy was quite accurate to the point I was trying to make. That it is simply a racist mindset

How dare you call me a racist.

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

So Livin, why is it that if one is a Palestinian and a Muslim in Gaza exactly you can’t want to live your life in peace?

You are aware that Hamas is in power in Gaza because they were elected in and that it could be possible the election was rigged, don’t you? Are you further aware that the residents of Gaza are very possibly under seige *by* Hamas and that the IDF’s actions against Hamas in Gaza are more of an attempt to liberate Gaza than an acutal attack against the non-Hamas connected citizens of Gaza?  Has it occurred to you that the pictures and video coming out of Gaza might be propoganda pieces embellished by Hamas?

dj-defkawn - 06 January 2009 08:29 PM

Now Livin you didn’t use the words “every Palestinian Muslim Arab is a Terrorist,” but what you did say is something like if you are a Palestinian Muslim Arab who lives in Gaza, then you’re credo is Israel’s absolute destruction correct?

Muslims are taught by extremist clerics that seeing to the killing of Jews is part of being Muslim and that having any Jewish traits or sympathy is considered treachery.  Here’s a quote from a Muslim cleric who preached a sermon at a Gaza mosque: “Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them and those who stand by them they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine....”

I suggest you might want to do some serious reading and study on what’s really happening in Gaza, what Hamas is about, and what the Israeli’s (and Jews worldwide) are about - not just some perfunctory stuff you’re pulled off the internet.  From what I can see, it appears you don’t have a good grasp on the facts and are operating on emotion and ignorance rather than reality.

In Saturday’s Wall Street Journal George Bisharat writes “Israel’s current assault on the Gaza Strip cannot be justified by self-defense. Rather, it involves serious violations of international law, including war crimes. Senior Israeli political and military leaders may bear personal liability for their offenses, and they could be prosecuted by an international tribunal, or by nations practicing universal jurisdiction over grave international crimes. Hamas fighters have also violated the laws of warfare, but their misdeeds do not justify Israel’s acts.” It’s a bold charge against Israel yet he builds a convincing argument against the current military operations in Gaza. He goes on to outline how Israel encouraged a vast network of smuggling tunnels along the border with Turkey by creating blockades that do not allow a free movement of trade. Since 2002 about 24 Israelis have been killed, although thousands of rockets have been launched from Gaza. Consider in roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza. Just in these last few days hundreds have been killed, many of them children. What is the cost of this? How many boys and girls, lucky to have survived, yet traumatized by the death and destruction around them, will swear to give their lives over to revenge? In spite of all the power of the Israeli armed forces, most supplied by the U.S., resistance in Gaza continues. I think peace will never be achieved this way. Does the current government of Israel truly desire peace?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:06 AM

He goes on to outline how Israel encouraged a vast network of smuggling tunnels along the border with Turkey

“Along the border with Turkey”?  Turkey isn’t a next-door neighbor to Israel.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:06 AM

by creating blockades that do not allow a free movement of trade.

No, look at the story again.  You’ve got too many important details wrong.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:06 AM

Since 2002 about 24 Israelis have been killed

Where are you getting your imformation?  Directly from the PLO, or the PA, or Hamas?  Those numbers are WAY off.  There have been many, many more Israelis killed in Israel (civilian as well as non-civilian) since 2002.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:06 AM

although thousands of rockets have been launched from Gaza. Consider in roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza. Just in these last few days hundreds have been killed, many of them children.

I, for one, do not believe any numbers that come from Hamas or their claims of the types of injuries/deaths they say have occured.  Hamas is a terrorist organization who probably forced their election win and are sworn to see every Jew (and their not too hot about Americans, either) on the planet killed.  Knowing that, do you believe *anything* they say?  If so, why?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:06 AM

What is the cost of this? How many boys and girls, lucky to have survived, yet traumatized by the death and destruction around them, will swear to give their lives over to revenge? In spite of all the power of the Israeli armed forces, most supplied by the U.S., resistance in Gaza continues. I think peace will never be achieved this way. Does the current government of Israel truly desire peace?

Like I said to DJ, if you want to understand what’s happening, you really need to get some accurate information first.  How can you judge one way or the other or even come close to making an accurate assessment of this fight with totally innaccurate information?

Of course Israel wants peace - they aren’t the bad guys here.  Of course Hamas and radical Islam wants death and Jihad - it’s what they live for.  I don’t mean this in a nasty way, but sheesh - get a clue.

Yeah it was way too late for me when I posted this. Of course the tunnels are on the Egyptian border.

I think George Bisharat make a good case here about the blockade when he says “Israel’s 18-month siege of the Gaza Strip preceding the current crisis violated this obligation egregiously.” (He believes Israel remains an occupying power with a legal duty to protect Gaza’s civilian population.) He goes on to say “It brought economic activity to a near standstill, left children hungry and malnourished, and denied Palestinian students opportunities to study abroad.”

The tunnel economy has become more complex and ambitious as the economy has been stifled by Israel’s tight grip there. This is well documented from many sources. A smugglers economy can’t be good for anyone on either side. Israel believes the destruction of the tunnels is key to any cease fire now and yet continues the blockade and has even thwarted Egypt’s attempts in the past to increase border security there.

Saying Israel wants peace is way too broad a brush for such a complicated mess. Individual Israelis will have their own opinions on that. The more important question would be does the current government there want peace, do they have a viable plan, and do they have a mandate of the majority of the Israeli citizens. Let me emphasize the word citizens here. Let’s look to the day when they would not be swayed by the opinions of those living in the luxury of peace and prosperity in faraway countries, countries that may have their own agendas in the Middle East.

You say Hamas and radical Islam wants death and Jihad - it’s what they live for. Again it is too generic a statement for a complex problem and in this case it’s inflammatory rhetoric. Hamas is fighting for justice and will come to terms with Israel only after that that goal is met. They do have a mandate of their citizens. They were democratically elected to a majority of parliament and denied recognition as a political party by Israel and the U.S., so for now the fundamentalist military wing rules the day. It is in no one’s best interest that they continue to do so. I believe an important opportunity was lost by not recognizing the elections in Gaza. Perhaps some day Hamas will be allowed a viable political voice, and will be able to give up the violent military option. Some make a case that the 2006 election was rigged. If indeed Hamas didn’t have support back then, they sure do now.

The longer Israel continues this occupation, over 800 Gaza dead so far, the more support will be thrown to the fundamentalists. Protests in other countries will increase. Rockets from other Islamic states will be fired. Suicide bombers will suit up. I don’t know what the solution to this problem is, but this military occupation is not going to work, nor will Hamas continued hail of rockets.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

I think George Bisharat make a good case here about the blockade

Bisharat is a Palestinian.  Of course he’s going to be pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel.  Hello?  Have you tried reading anything that doesn’t have a built-in Palestinian slant on it?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

Saying Israel wants peace is way too broad a brush for such a complicated mess.

I’m sorry - but you’ve never been there (yes, I know I’m making an assumption, but I’m 99.999% certain my assumption is correct).  You’ve never talked to the people who live there.  You don’t know any Israeli’s (and you probably don’t know any Palestinians) and you only read and believe the Palestinian slant on the truth.  And the rest of your post shows how completely clueless you are about the entire situation.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

You say Hamas and radical Islam wants death and Jihad - it’s what they live for. Again it is too generic a statement for a complex problem and in this case it’s inflammatory rhetoric.

Wow.  Have you not been paying attention?  That’s not what *I* say, it’s what *they* say.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

Hamas is fighting for justice and will come to terms with Israel only after that that goal is met.

"Justice"?  “Justice” for what???  If anyone should be getting justice, it’s the Israeli’s.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

They do have a mandate of their citizens.

No, Hamas has a mandate from the extremists of their religion and from their hatred.  Hamas has TAKEN OVER GAZA. 

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

They were democratically elected to a majority of parliament

Oh, brother.  You don’t really believe that, do you?  You don’t seriously believe that their voting is like our voting here in the United States, do you?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

and denied recognition as a political party by Israel and the U.S.,

Uhh...what about “we don’t negotiate with” or recognize terrorists as a legitimate entity don’t you understand?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

so for now the fundamentalist military wing rules the day.

What?  How is Hamas ruling anything other than to create and continue terror amongst the citizens of Gaza?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

It is in no one’s best interest that they continue to do so. I believe an important opportunity was lost by not recognizing the elections in Gaza.

Oy vey.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

Perhaps some day Hamas will be allowed a viable political voice, and will be able to give up the violent military option. Some make a case that the 2006 election was rigged. If indeed Hamas didn’t have support back then, they sure do now.

HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.  WHY SHOULD THEY BE RECOGNIZED AS ANYTHING BUT A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION?

(Okay...I’m calmer now)

Are you aware that “HAMAS” is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement”?  They are zealots.  Radicals.  Terrorists.  They are NOT nice guys.  Their entire reason for being is stated in the credo of their root organization, the Muslim Brotherhood: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope”.

Does that sound like the credo of a group that should be allowed “a viable political voice”?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

The longer Israel continues this occupation

There is no Israeli occupation.  You are merely repeating anti-Israel rhetoric.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

over 800 Gaza dead so far,

Where did you get that number?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

the more support will be thrown to the fundamentalists. Protests in other countries will increase.

Which is exactly what Hamas and Al Qaeda and the PLO and the PA want.  Don’t you get it?  They aren’t justified, they’re working toward full-blown, worldwide Jihad against Israel and the Jews and the US.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

Rockets from other Islamic states will be fired.

They will?  From where?

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

Suicide bombers will suit up.

They’ve never stopped “suit[ing] up”.

turtledove - 10 January 2009 05:22 PM

I don’t know what the solution to this problem is, but this military occupation is not going to work, nor will Hamas continued hail of rockets.

You’re right.  You “don’t know”.  I sincerely hope you do something about that.

They, they, they. Surely you can’t believe all Israelis are of a single mind and don’’t think independently. By the way, Bisharat was born in Topeka Kansas. Palestinian desent, not a crime the last time I checked. U.S citizen. He is not any more a Palestinian, than you are an Israeli. Are you an Israeli? I don’t agree with everything he is saying but I’ll read what he has to say on the subject. I believe he is qualified on the subject. I will take note of his Palestinian slant on things, but I’m not going to discount what he has to say just because.

Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is a way to demonize them. What gives anyone the right to unilaterally declare someone a terrorist and thereby deny their rights. In today’s jargon wouldn’t American patriots been branded terrorists by the British? I believe they were charged with treason, yes? Yet to us today they are heroes. Did they go on to form a legitiment government? Were they eventually recognized by that very monarcy who branded them outlaws? Yes, they were.

Tell me, what is the difference between a religious fanatic committing genocide and a chartered government committing genocide?

Is there any evidence of tampering in the elections there? I’ve heard this charge before but never seen it substantiated.  If Hamas was given the opportunity to succeed politically, would that eclipse their need to act out in aggression?

If you don’t want to call it an occupation by Israel, what would you call it? At least 814 Palestinians, roughly half of them civilians, have died since war broke out on Dec. 27, according to Palestinian medical officials. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have been killed. Like shooting turkeys in a barrel don’t you think?