Sarge - 12 August 2008 12:43 PM

He committed a federial.. no let him serve the time ...life w/o parole...would suit me fine for his recklessness.

He committed a what?  Spell checker, get one and use it!

DJ..I totally agree with you.

Again....an ACCIDENT would be if he dropped the gun and it accidentally misfired.  The gun was pointed, some news stories even say a SCOPE was used.  It was not an accident.  It was NEGLIGENCE.

neg·li·gence –noun
3. Law. the failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.

One thing I think we can all be certain of in this saga is that the Skagit County Sheriff’s Department feels strongly enough about the kid’s actions in all of this, that manslaughter charges are being brought up against a 14 yr.old boy. It will definately be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

I totally agree Manerva!

I mean it wasn’t like his gun accidently went off without warning, he always could have refrained from pulling the trigger untill he knew what he was shooting at, that’s simply negligant behavior, esspecially if a scope wasn’t used, and he was popping off shots from over the distance of a football field in the vicinity of a well known hiking trail, that’s just stupid. But if the kid did have a scope, I am completely dumb founded on how anyone could mistake a brown or black bear for a Caucasian woman in her 50’s out hiking one afternoon from a distance of 120 yrds. I mean if the kid didn’t have good enough visibilty to clearly make out what he was popping off shots at, had a crummy scope, or didn’t have a sope at all. He should have moved to a position where he could clearly have made out what he was shooting at. Yeah and granted, I don’t think he meant to kill this woman. But the fact of this woman being dead is due to the fact that this boy chose not to follow what are common sense rules for everyone who goes hunting out in the wilderness, and that is simply negligance.

If you do not know about this kid, the juvie system, and the issues involved then why talk about it..

The Juvie system in this country is a joke. He will not get the needed counseling and support.  He will get counseling but not the needed type. 

I too think these charges were filed due to the public up roar.. 

The family does not have any say in what the sentencing becomes.  It is up to the judge/jury.

Skagit Woman - 12 August 2008 03:09 PM

Someone said to me he thought it would all be buried but there was to much public interest.

Good.  Kill somebody, it won’t go away.

dj-defkawn - 12 August 2008 04:44 PM

But the fact of this woman being dead is due to the fact that this boy chose not to follow what are common sense rules for everyone who goes hunting out in the wilderness, and that is simply negligance.

I don’t think anyone is arguing it wasn’t negligent, dj.

If you read the full story at http://www.goskagit.com/home/article/teen_hunter_to_be_charged_with_first_degree_manslaughter/ and then anyone thinks the posibility of this kid spending 9months in juvenile detention isn’t a warranted punishment, then something is wrong with you. According to the story these kids were popping off shots on a foggy day when visibility was at times ranging from 20ft to 100 yards on the mountain that day, while simply relying on rifle scopes to identify targets, and again in the vicinity of a known hiking trail, and shot the victim from a distance beyond what was considered to be adequate visibility at all that day, is it any wonder they had no idea what they were shooting at?

What about counseling for the friend of the victim who was standing about 2ft away from her friend Ms.Almi when her head was blown off by a .270 caliber bullet and her lifeless body fell to the ground? Or couseling for the Almi family who have to come to terms with the fact that their loved one got shot in the head and killed. This kid isn’t a victim, he’s an individual who chose to go out and hunt, and not do it safely, and a woman and her family and friends have paid the ultimate price for his stupid negligent decision. Again I don’t think they should throw the book at the kid, but he deserves to answer up for what he did, Ms.Almi was made to pay with her life, so I think a charge of manslaughter which could find him spending 9 months in juvenille detention, isn’t to high of a price.

titletown - 12 August 2008 04:51 PM

If you do not know about this kid, the juvie system, and the issues involved then why talk about it..

The Juvie system in this country is a joke. He will not get the needed counseling and support.  He will get counseling but not the needed type.

Point 1:  If convicted, he won’t be going to the “juvie system in this country”, he will be going to Juvenile Detention in this county.  Talking about the juvenile system in the entire United States is non sequitur and ridiculous generalization that has nothing to do with anything.

Point 2:  How can you possibly know what he will and will not receive if he is convicted and put in Juvenile Detention?  Making such statements is plainly conjecture on your part (something this forum seems to have no lack of) and beyond ridiculous.

Because I have coached kids that have been in Juvie and have a brother that has been there..

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 05:18 PM

titletown - 12 August 2008 04:51 PM

If you do not know about this kid, the juvie system, and the issues involved then why talk about it..

The Juvie system in this country is a joke. He will not get the needed counseling and support.  He will get counseling but not the needed type.

Point 1:  If convicted, he won’t be going to the “juvie system in this country”, he will be going to Juvenile Detention in this county.  Talking about the juvenile system in the entire United States is non sequitur and ridiculous generalization that has nothing to do with anything.

Point 2:  How can you possibly know what he will and will not receive if he is convicted and put in Juvenile Detention?  Making such statements is plainly conjecture on your part (something this forum seems to have no lack of) and beyond ridiculous.

Well said LivinUpRiver, very well said… :o)

SouthFidalgo - 12 August 2008 03:47 PM

I agree that this incident probably resulted in charges being filed only because the shooting drew statewide attention.

If there is anything good that can possibly come out of this tragedy, I hope it will be the following:

1. The current rules allowing children to hunt will be changed to require that a child be accompanied by a licensed, adult hunter.
2. Ongoing hunter safety refresher classes will be required for all minors.
3. Hunting seasons and hunting areas will be clearly marked with Warning signs about mixed useage areas and a safety reminder to hunters to identify their target before they shoot.
4. A change in people’s minds that a deadly hunting shooting error is an act of negligence rather than merely an accident.
5. A wake-up call to those responsible for enforcing hunting regulations and shooting laws to take their responsibilities seriously and to be quick to respond when hunting violations and shooting concerns are reported.  Don’t wait for a tragedy to do your jobs. If you take shooting seriously, then hopefully the people who are in violation of the law will also begin to learn to take shooting seriously--before someone else is killed.
6. A renewed respect for the vast majority of safe, responsible hunters who are legitimately practicing their chosen form of recreation.  This should not turn into an anti-hunting crusade.
7. A return of the basic concept of personal responsibility for one’s action and an acceptance of the consequences of one’s actions.

My thoughts, just much more articulate.
Two things though:
1) As much as I ahbor hunting with guns, I do support the 2nd Amendment.  Seattleites with the crooks among them and Sedro folks with the wildlife (and crooks too) among them should have the right to bear arms and defend themselves.  Also having some guns in the hands of the citizens and “national guard” militias is a security blanket from becoming another Russia or PRC and a crucial part of the American identity…
2) Consider deconfliction between hikers and hunters - such as hunters can only hunt in certain areas only hunters go and/or clear warnings to hikers to wear bright clothes (I, for one will never again go into the woods w/o something that has bright on it like my Seahawks jacket that has neon green rings around the armpits and bright white lettering in the front.

dj-defkawn - 12 August 2008 05:15 PM

If you read the full story at http://www.goskagit.com/home/article/teen_hunter_to_be_charged_with_first_degree_manslaughter/ and then anyone thinks the posibility of this kid spending 9months in juvenile detention isn’t a warranted punishment, then something is wrong with you.

Maybe you need to experience a little more life before making such statements such as “what’s wrong with [people]” who have been walking this earth considerably longer than you have, dj.

dj-defkawn - 12 August 2008 05:15 PM

What about counseling for the friend of the victim who was standing about 2ft away from her friend Ms.Almi when her head was blown off by a .270 caliber bullet and her lifeless body fell to the ground? Or couseling for the Almi family who have to come to terms with the fact that their loved one got shot in the head and killed.

No one’s saying that the Almli family or the friend who was hiking with Mrs. Almli shouldn’t get counseling, dj.  Why are you going off on a tangent here?

dj-defkawn - 12 August 2008 05:15 PM

This kid isn’t a victim

Uhhh...did anybody say he is a “victim”?  Besides, it’s not only victims that need and deserve counseling, you know.

titletown - 12 August 2008 05:20 PM

Because I have coached kids that have been in Juvie and have a brother that has been there..

Okay...once again, you can’t possibly know what he will receive service-wise if he is sent to Juvenile Detention.

dj-defkawn - 12 August 2008 04:09 PM

If I drove my car down the street, and didn’t pay attention and ended up accidently hitting and killing a pedestrian minding their own business walking down the sidewalk, seeing how I didn’t mean to, I shouldn’t be made to answer for that, or face any sort of punishment right?

It happens all the time, friend.  Two months ago in Mount Vernon a truck driver pulled out from a stop sign without looking and killed a friend of mine on his motorcycle.  The bike had the right-of-way and was traveling at the posted speed.  No charges were filed against the driver.

The kid who shot the woman should go to jail and the truck driver who killed my friend should’ve gone to jail also.

I know. Having in depth conversations and seeing these kids go in and out, they definitely have been supportd and taken care of..

titletown - 12 August 2008 05:27 PM

I know. Having in depth conversations and seeing these kids go in and out, they definitely have been supportd and taken care of..

Hmmm...well, if you’ve been listening only to the “kids [that] go in and out” of Juvenile Detention, you’re only listening to one side of the story.  And JD isn’t just for rehabilitation, it’s also for punishment.  What a juvenile does with his or her life *after* being released, is up to them, and choices have to be made.  I can guarantee you that they are given the tools for making proper choices while in JD - what they do with those toold after they are released is completely up to them.  Moreover, it’s not like they don’t have plenty of time while incarcerated to think about how they are going to live their lives again out in the real world, dontcha think?

Taking responsibility for your life and your actions and your choices is what it’s all about.  Make the wrong choices = face the consequences.  And if you don’t know what choices to make, ask someone who knows.  It’s really pretty simple.

LivinUpRiver,

Regardless of many people on this forum having walked this earth quite a bit longer then myself, my responses were based on fact.

The kid shot a woman from a distance of at least 120 yards, and according to the link I posted to the goskagit.com story about the kid’s being brought up on manslaughter charges, the maximum distance of clear visibility that day on the mountain ranged from 20ft. to 100 yrds. Plus also in the story the Skagit County Prosecuter(who has considerably more life experience then my 23yrs) a number of contributing factors on the part of the kid (relying simply on rifle sites in poor visibility, failing to properly identify a target and what lies beyond it in a bullets path for a few examples) and a number of others that I personally feel that one would have to have the intelligence of a wallnut not to see that given the circumstances and the outcome of what transpired from this kid not following basic hunting rules, that a maximum sentence of 9 months in juvenille detention isn’t too high a price to pay. If I did something negligent that caused someone to loose their life because I wasn’t paying attention to an important rule or guideline, I would only but expect to be made to answer for it. So those are some of the many reasons I said what I did.

Now my counseling response was in regards to titletown’s remark about counseling for this young man. Now I told agree kid in this incident needs counseling, but I just think they’re needs to be just as much attentiong counseling wise paid to the family and loved ones of the victim. But so many people go on about the poor kid on these forums, and not about her family and loved ones, and I felt titletown’s response made this kid out to sound like a victim of corruption. Rather then a kid who did something stupid that will have his day in court to speak to a court about what went down like anybody else would.

Irtnog...I totally agree with you...frankly I’m appalled that no charges were filed in that incident.  I thought they had been.  I’m sorry.

To all of you who say charges were filed because of uproar that a bunch of CRAP.  The sherrif investigated, the prosecutor reviewed and apparently there was enough evidence to support the charges.

As far as Juvie goes, almost always when a juvenile is convicted of a felony they do time at a State facility. Depending on the count in the Skagit County Detention, he may do time there. Only the court knows.  The family of the victim may very well have a say in the filing, trial, etc.  Normally, the victim’s family is contacted before a plea agreement is finalized.  I would imagine the juvenile’s family doesn’t want him to go through a jury trial (or even a trial by Judge) and I’d bet a plea deal is in the works.

And to the poster who said he won’t get what he needs in Juvie...you can’t possibly know what he will and will not get and ultimately it boils down to the decision HE makes during this time.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- An unforeseen and unintentional act identifiable in time and place.

When you point a gun at something and pull the trigger, you intend for the thing you point the gun at to die, regardless of whether or not you know what you are pointing at.  The fact that you don’t know what you are pointing at clearly demonstrates negligence and incompetence.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- An undesigned contingency, a happening by chance, something out of the usual course of things, unusual, not anticipated and not naturally to be expected

Nothing here happened by chance.  He pointed the gun on purpose, he pulled the trigger on purpose.  It is very natural to expect something you shoot in the head to die.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- Any sudden event which is unintended.

See #1 above.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- Literally, a befalling; an event that takes place without one’s foresight or expectation; an undesigned, sudden, and unexpected event; chance; contingency; often, an undesigned and unforeseen occurrence of an afflictive or unfortunate character; a casualty; a mishap; as, to die by an accident

See #1 and #2 above.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- An accident is a specific, identifiable, unexpected, unusual and unintended external event which occurs in a particular time and place, without apparent cause but with marked effects.

See #1 and #2 above.  Her death had a very apparent cause.  She was shot in the head.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

- an unfortunate mishap; especially one causing damage or injury

See #1 and #2 above.

LivinUpriver - 12 August 2008 04:12 PM

Based on the above, I’d say that “accident” is not inappropriate in this case.

I’d (and more importantly the authorities) say it is inappropriate.

I don’t understand why y’all have such a problem with the boy owning up to his actions.  People are falling all over themselves making excuses for him.  Do you not believe in personal responsibility?  Do you not believe in being accountable for your actions and decisions, whether they be right or wrong?
Are you so quick to defend drunk drivers who kill people?  I doubt any of them meant to kill anyone.